I Agree For The Most Part That Vader Shouldn't Fight Obi-wan In The Kenobi Series But If There Is One

Hey same guy I like your meta but I feel like this is more out of character beyond something TCW related. For example in most books I read on Dooku they never mention him having a preference for humans and even though the dark side changes people I don't remember a case that a dark sider suddenly became racist because of their arrogance. So unless Dooku hid it so well to the point where they don't mention it even in his point of view I don't see how that is in character for him. I don't want to dismiss but it doesn't really add up to other material I have. To me he is the type of person who could care less about species and more about how useful the person is and is arrogant to everyone not just one species. I understand how he feels about cybernetics for Anakin and Grievous would be in character but not the rest. That's how I feel at least.

Hey um I saw your Dooku meta and I just wanted to mention that in the Revenge of the Sith novelization it's been mentioned that Dooku was a bit out of character when it came to his racism because it makes no sense in context and was never mentioned before. What do you think? Personally I feel like those quotes out of character because he wasn't revolted by Yoda or other Jedi.

Hey! Tbh I’ve never heard that argument before so I don’t really know what to say. It’s usually something people say when they are not happy with the canon and, as someone who has been used the OOC argument before, I think people should be more careful with that. 

Anyway, Dooku’s ‘arrogance’ is part of the movie canon. George cast Christopher Lee because he wanted a gentleman to play the role, he wanted to the character to have a certain ‘nobility’ feel. Plus, Christopher Lee himself talks about Dooku’s lack of morals and quest for power.

"He's very aloof, very self-contained, obviously completely fearless," describes Lee. "He is extremely intelligent, perhaps more so than almost anyone else. He's obviously a man of immense power. I don't suppose that the question of moral values enter into his head. He's not immoral -- he's amoral. Morality is a word that doesn't figure in his vocabulary at all. It's power. Which is something that exists very much in our world today."  But was Dooku always like this? New fiction from the Expanded Universe will soon shed light on Dooku's younger days. The forthcoming Star Wars: Legacy of the Jedi, by Jude Watson and Scholastic Inc., tells a tale when Dooku was a noble Jedi Knight. Like his pupil, Qui-Gon Jinn, he will be headstrong and unorthodox for a Jedi Knight. "Maybe at one time when he was younger, when he became a Jedi, I'm sure he did behave in a totally moral and correct way," speculates Lee. "Probably like the old Knights Templar when they started in the 12th century, they started as very good people to protect all the pilgrims on the Crusades. But gradually over the years they disintegrated morally, spiritually and in every way. I know that because I played the Grand Master of the Templars in a film. Eventually, their whole order disintegrated. Who's to say that this isn't going to happen in the third Episode?" [x]

Stover’s interpretation of Dooku as a prejudiced, arrogant men his not unique either. The same side of him was explored by James Luceno in Labyrinth of Evil, and by Dave Filoni and George Lucas in The Clone Wars (just watch his treatment of Maul, Savage and the nightsisters). 

Arrogance and subjugation of those they deem ‘inferior’ are common traits in sith lords so I don’t see him being arrogant and prejudiced a problem, especially in terms of characters development. Also, Labyrinth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith are set during the final years of the Republic, when Dooku is already a Sith Lord. and we all know that people change when they join the dark side so maybe what we know of Dooku as an adult was exacerbated by the dark side. The way Anakin’s anger and pain took a completely different turn when he became Vader.

In stover’s defense, he worked closely with George when writing the book so if the idea of Dooku being like that had been so OOC I have no doubt George or LF would’ve done something. the idea that the EU was this mess where everyone could do as they please is unrealistic. 

Personally, before I call anything OOC I like to dig deep into the lore and leave my own bias at the door. I’ve read plenty of stuff about my favorites that I don’t like but once I considered the context I’ve accepted why it was written. It’s the same thing happening right now with fans pissed at TCW and Filoni because they made the Jedi Order ‘political’, saying it’s all OCC. The Order has always been political, people has just been in denial. 

@professorerudite Umm who was going to trial them? Tattooine is literally lawless and their leader is a freaking crime boss no one would have given a sh** considering this is not the first time they did it

Why do people seem very surprised about Vader killing younglings in Order 66? Yeah it's bad, not justifying it but literally in A New Hope we see him assisting or at least sitting by idly while Tarkin blows up Alderaan.

Because picturing something is different than witnessing it. It’s one thing to imagine, in the back of your mind, the possibility of Anakin slaughtering children and it’s an entirely different thing to watch kids be slaughtered. Also, for most of the prequels, Anakin was the hero. We were used to seen him saving them day – no matter how aware we were about who he would later became – so, to watch that transformation on screen was very traumatic. I guess denial probably plays a role in this too because, until that moment, we knew Anakin would go bad but we didn’t know how. Back in the day, people still theorized about why and how Anakin became Vader so when ROTS premiere we had no idea what to expect. Until we saw it with our own ideas we could still imagine that something/someone “made him do it”, that maybe he wasn’t THAT vile. Watching Anakin, willingly, kill kids in cold blood was a rude awakening for the audience.

It also played with our sympathies. Alderaan was tragic but we didn’t actually *experienced* it. It was something that happened to somebody else, someone we weren’t emotionally attached to, so it was much, much easier to dismiss Vader’s role in the destruction of Alderaan. Now, cute little kids being cruelly cut down *on screen* is not as easy to dismiss.

But it was

“anakin and padme’s relationship was 100% perfect and healthy right up until he choked her on mustafar” is a hot take that i did not expect to find in fandom and now i’m going to have to take valuable hours out of my day to write a 10,000 word rebuttal just because someone had the audacity to say so on one of my posts

Um actually you are wrong on several accounts for example Anakin did not care about being a Jedi master because of the tittle it was something he really wanted but because it gave him access to the forbidden archives to find a way to save padme so no he was actually focused on saving his wife and children not because of a promotion. It's in the novelization but it was canon and Lucas over saw it and helped edit it. Also Anakin is shown to be angry because he feels it is injustice that he is on the council seat and not a master instead of not having the seat at all. If the seat was rejected I don't think he would lash out nearly as much as he acts calm at their initial doubt. I think your not giving Anakin enough credit and just writing him of as some arrogant brat when he is not hell Anakin at this point was fully committed to just leaving the Order to be with Padme after saving her life but because the council refuses to give him access to he a master and potentially saving Padme he was pissed. Even then you seem to forget in the movie he just a question and doesn't try to you know kill them or threaten them he only ask a simple question that the SWTOr era would have given him. Satele's apprentice when not given the rank of knight was explained why he couldn't get it but noooo not Anakin.

Anakin, the Jedi Knight class story & the Jedi Council

So the Jedi take a lot of hits - some deserved, many not - for their decisions during the various stories. One of the decisions where i think they don’t deserve the hate was this much-discussed gem from Revenge of the Sith.    

Wouldn’t it be awesome if this were all a test? Like, if Anakin does what a Jedi is supposed to do and says “I understand, Master. I will strive to prove worthy of your trust.” they all say. “Ah - that’s the correct answer. Congratulations. You are now a Jedi Master.” Instead, he throws a fit about not getting a promotion. Jedi are not supposed to care that much about promotions. A reminder here - The Jedi do NOT promote based on personal power, or even as an act of merit for victories in battle. The Jedi promote to Master based on wisdom and dedication to the ideals of the order. They make no secret of this. To anyone. Anakin, at this point, is a galactic hero in the war against the CIS. He slew Dooku. He’s won countless battles. But virtually everything he says and does screams ‘I’m not ready to be a Jedi master and i may never be ready to be a Jedi master!’ (It shouldn’t help that he has married and is having kids, and all he can think about is whether or not he gets the nice corner office at work. He’s honestly thinking about his career?) 

Honestly, this is some petulant emo b.s. And no, The Clone Wars doesn’t make me think differently about it.  Maybe the Jedi Order - and Obi-Wan - did fail Anakin. Maybe they didn’t help him deal with the trauma of his childhood or his mother’s death. Quite frankly, there are so many iterations between Canon and Legends that i can’t keep track.  But you cannot tell me that they were being unfair to him when they told him they weren’t making him a Jedi master. I can’t help but contrast it with the ending of the Jedi Knight story.

Now if you went DS - if you chose to go DS - then Satele does not make you a Master.  This is appropriate. No one “accidentally” goes DS when they play SWTOR, much less when they play JK and the LS points come at you like crazy.  But i keep seeing fans of every stripe complain about how unfair and hypocritical this is. After all - you’ve just saved the galaxy! The Jedi don’t appoint Masters based on saving the galaxy. They don’t appoint Masters based on winning the most battles. If a Jedi Knight does not become a Jedi Master at the end of the story, then the responsibility for that lies squarely on the player. (I will say that its b.s. that Satele calls out the DS JK in front of the Republic’s entire leadership. That was terribly indiscreet on Satele’s part and makes no sense whatsoever.)  I know some people have written fic where the JK has no choice but to go dark-side in order to destroy the Emperor, and then use the fic as a platform to complain about how unfair Satele and the council are. That is their right, but that is not what happens in the actual game.  Jedi Masters certainly do fail, either falling to the dark side or to their own hypocrisy. Jaric Kaedan. Jun Seros. Dooku. Being named a Jedi Master does not give you some kind of shield against failure. Maybe the council should have seen the signs on some of THOSE failures.  But Anakin and a dark-side JK? I’m sorry. But they have have no room to complain. The Jedi order never lied about the qualifications for being a master.  BioWare doesn’t always do a great job making our choices matter. But they did here.

Reblog and put in the tags why you wouldn't survive in a horror movie

Ahsoka's relationship with Anakin is not as close or as healthy as Padme's as he would keep secrets from her and openly make sure she knew nothing of his past and when turned to Vader he openly tried to kill her with no remorse compared to Padme or Luke

lbr Anakin has probably had about two healthy relationships in his life and that's shmi and ahsoka

(and even that last one's dubious because he's shoved into a parental role to someone five years younger than him in the middle of a civil war 🤷🏻‍♀️)

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