Hi Everyone,

The differences between C-DID and HC-DID

WARNING: RAMCOA AND TMBC TALK. STAY SAFE!!!

So, we see a lot of people on here are saying that HC-DID is just C-DID but with a different abuse history, which is only a very small part of makes the two different! So, we’re going to explain in this what differentiates the two, as well as what makes them similar!!!

Also, no hate to those saying they’re the same as most of not all of the time they’re just misinformed!!!

Overlap

Polyfragmented

Has subsystems

If there’s an inner world it’s complex

Smaller window for structure formation (eg. 0-5 years old instead of 0-9)

Can have a low splitting tolerance

C-DID traits not present in HC-DID

No mind control/programmed alters

this is the most important thing!!! I wouldn’t recommend looking into MC and it’s forms if you are suspecting a history of it for yourself, but there are different programs (eg. eta, beta, iota, spider in web) that create and mind control alters. We’ll get into that more in HC-DID exclusive!!!

Always has low split tolerance or group splittings

High amnesia barriers in every area

Was not intentionally created/disorder was not manipulated by abusers to serve them

HC-DID traits not present in C-DID

Programming and programmed alters.

We’re going to use an example here, so be warned. Let’s say the XYZ system has gamma and beta programming. Gamma programming is loyalty programming. When XYZ heard a certain string of numbers, a member of the ABC sidesystem (more on that later) comes out. An alter from there then goes to contact an abuser asking for sex, to which the abuser replies. The abuser then plays a song that triggers out a member of the DEF sidesystem, which is beta aka sexually programmed. The alters come out and have sex with the abuser.

Another example. Suicide and sh are discussed. The 123 system has omega programming, which is suicidal and sh programming. The host of the 123 system decides to look into RAMCOA, and a higher up/internal handler with Omega programming is alerted by a gatekeeper. The handler then orders the gatekeeper to let the 456 sidesystem take front, to which the alters take turns in mutilating the body in different ways. At the end, the host fronts and human instincts, programming and logical reasoning all decide that looking into RAMCOA is not worth it, meaning the system doesn’t find out about its history for a long time.

Sidesystems. Sidesystems are a set of programmed alters meant to carry out a specific programmed act. For example, a theta aka religiously programmed sidesystem may exist for certain rituals, in which one alter fronts for each step. These are different from subsystems because subsystems are not programmed.

Can have a high split tolerance as well as a low split tolerance

Can have low amnesia barriers in some areas with high amnesia barriers in others (layer 1 alters can remember what the others do but don’t remember anything about the layer 3 alters and their actions)

Disorder was intentionally manipulated to serve the abuser(s) whether they knew about DID as a disorder or not

And those are what we’ve got! We hope that this post was informative and helped you get a better understanding of the differences between the two structures!!! Tysm for reading, and have a good day!!!

1. Yes! A good chunk of our sidesystems don’t 

2. HC-DID, and I said we have a brother hi counting numbers somewhere around the 400

3. Yes we have a lot of  accents, does not mean we’re fake, we just grew in a very diverse place.

4. Yes, I’m starting to stutter because of silence programming. Please please change the topic. It will only get worse 

Questions for other systems (traumagenics only)

🚨Warning: has a question mentioning MC (no details/abuse descriptions)🚨

Do you have any alters that don’t know they’re a part of a system?

If you’re polyfragmented (both C-DID and HC-DID, or just polyfrag if you prefer), do you have a high number of alters or are you medium to low on the alter count?

What’s one thing you wished people could know about your system specifically?

For systems with MC, what’s one thing that you wished people knew about programming/MC?

I’ll make a reblog answering these questions if I feel like it, if not I’ll just let y’all answer. Not that I wouldn’t do that anyways.

Feel free to reblog for sample size & add comments in the tags.

RAMCOA stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, & Organized Abuse.

Rant

CW: This post will discuss RAMCOA (not in detail) and the mistreatment of RAMCOA survivors in the OSDDID community. Please read with caution.

RAMCOA survivors are treated terribly in the system community. Your trauma is seen as larger than life, not real/fictional, or too bad to talk about. Hell, I'm nervous to even mention this kind of thing because it's so heavily seen as taboo and dangerous to talk about to other people. We're not allowed to share our stories because our trauma(s) are "too severe" and "dangerous" that we're not allowed to share what we went through. I have seen people say not to Google it, and if they do that they'll be more likely to be a victim as well. Which.. just isn't true. Apply that to any other trauma where Googling the definition makes it more likely for you to experience it. Make it make sense! You don't have to share your story in any case scenario, but why are we not ALLOWED to? Why is our trauma that different? It's isolating us, which is what my abusers would've wanted. I've been told that my trauma is fake, and no wonder! We're not allowed to talk about it. Ever. Let us talk about it if we feel comfortable to, it's not your choice, it's OURS.

Something I've noticed is how some CDD systems (and general trauma survivors) sometimes treat "extreme" trauma like a fictional concept when trying to valid themselves. I understand where "you don't need to go through RAMCOA abuse/a war/a dictatorship/etc to be a system and have cptsd" comes from and I fully agree with it. Some shitty ableist singlets can be very annoying with how they only accept trauma when it's "extreme" trauma. But I think the way some people talk about it sometimes just makes it sound off. I don't know it's just the way some people phrase it like "Not everyone traumatised is living in a war zone 🙄" makes me really uncomfortable. Like it's not the faults of people who have gone through "extreme" trauma that some people are ableist and uneducated

Also, people who go through those do exist? Like idk most people I see talk about it like it's some far-off vague fictional out-there concept and not like, a thing that real people experience and go through? Like RAMCOA abuse is real and valid (I'm not a survivor myself so I won't talk about it a lot but I felt the need to bring it up because the way some people talk about it is just weird), people who have lived through wars exist? and their trauma is valid, people who have been trafficked exist and their trauma is valid, people who have been tortured exist and their trauma is valid, people who have survived genocides exist and their trauma is valid, and people who have been in cults exist and their trauma is valid. In general, people with "extreme" trauma exist and their trauma is real

Survivors of "extreme" abuse/trauma shouldn't be made to feel like their trauma is too taboo to mention. Or feel like they can't talk about it out of fear of "invalidating other systems". All trauma is valid (including "non extreme" trauma). I think validating traumatic things that aren't usually viewed as trauma by the average person is good but please try not to bring down anyone else in the process

Does McLean Hospital Have Ties To MK Ultra?

Claims made, the evidence, the known facts, and the falsehoods.

CW/Brief: This talks about a government ran mind control project that took place in 1953-1973. Claims recently have resurfaced as a reaction to a contentious video that was released. This video was greatly contested by people with DID and professionals in psychiatry and psychology alike for it's poor handling of subject material and violation of ethics. This will not go fully in depth on the tactics used but addresses more recent claims about the hospital that originally hosted this video. There will be usage of words like torture. This also will mention a prolific case where the victim ended up becoming a terrible person- murder may be mentioned. This case was only brought up due to its prolific nature.

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

Terminology used

RAMCOA: A specific subset of purposeful abuse, known to primarily be done by groups. Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

TBMC: Trauma/Torture Based Mind Control.

Mk-Ultra: A government run CIA project/operation meant to try and mind control agents and civilians alike. This has heavy ties to TBMC.

Syscourse: System based discourse that tends to happen surrounding plurality or multiplicity (a self-schema) and DID/OSDD-1 a dissociative disorder that often has the Alters be highly focused upon. Syscourse usually culminates in fights between those with "endogenic plurality" and "CDDs" (CDDs are known as Complex Dissociative Disorders) we engage in this on our main and mention it as it does tie into the sorts of reasons the claims surfaced recently.

TLDR; There are possible and reasonable claims that McLean plausibly could have had a hand in Mk-Ultra in the past. It is fact that they have ties to Mk-Ultra, by association with Harvard Medical. The ties do not by any means implicate them in any form of guilt. There is no evidence that McLean for certain ever had any involvement in the past, however it is plausible. There is absolutely NO reason to suspect the hospital currently in the year of 2023, fifty years after the project (if they even had any hand in it), has been closed. The resurfacing of this discussion happened due to victims of similar experiences (TBMC/RAMCOA) becoming triggered by the aforementioned video and finding this information out and not doing their due diligence to handle any of it with the care it deserves. This was not the time to bring this up, this is a separate discussion that should have never been tied to the video. The current way the claims and accusations are being handled and the fear mongering is a net negative both for this discussion and for causing unnecessary distrust in doctors who are there to genuinely help. Additionally there are false claims mixed in with the true ones, such as the claim that McLean continued to partake in horrific experiments until 1987, which has no source other than a known conspiracy theorist.

Full Post

We were planning to stay fully out of syscourse for a little while but seeing as things/discussions for RAMCOA got crosstagged as syscourse we ended up running into something that we want to thoroughly stamp out the idea of. To preface this, yes, we are a RAMCOA survivor. The full details we have stated ever are very minimal, we are purposefully hiding a shit ton of things. However what remains is the fact we are a victim of TBMC, our RAMCOA was more focused upon MC than any other aspect. As such we took a very specific interest in this situation. Feel free to tag this post as syscourse if you want, we do not consider it such ourselves as this pertains directly to a type of trauma.

There is actually a loose connection to be made between McLean hospital and MK-Ultra. McLean Hospital had ties to Harvard Medical, which has been purportedly linked to MK-Ultra. The one declassified governmental mind control project.

This dates back all the way to 1977, this is not the only claim of Harvard's involvement either. In fact anyone who is morbidly curious may know of a famous case very, very well. Theodore Kaczynski, otherwise known as the Unabomber. It is a known fact that this man was a victim of MK Ultra and experimentation by Harvard. This has been known for a very long time.

To be clear TBMC does not excuse murder. We as a survivor of TBMC ourselves are not a danger, however it must be recognized that in some cases people are not criminally responsible due to their mental functionality. This is similar to a case where someone pleads insanity- the actions are heinous and still were UNDENIABLY his doing. We are not saying he should not be blamed, nor are we making light of his victims. Explanations are not excuses.

Some minimal sources.

The Atlantic

Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber

A series of purposely brutalizing psychological experiments may have confirmed Theodore Kaczynski’s still-forming belief in the evil of scie

Exploring your mind

The Harvard Experiment that Led to the Unabomber

Although he participated in a Harvard experiment and is extremely smart, Ted Kaczynski is now serving time in a maximum-security...

These are only one of many many articles, videos, deep dives, and talks about this situation and the irreparable damage that the way human experimentation in the USA has messed people up in more recent times.

If you had any awareness of the general situation surrounding these things you would realize the claims are predicated upon a long standing history of Harvard Medical specifically having definitive ties and accusations to ties with MK-Ultra. The accusations have not arisen out of thin air, this isn't a new claim, this has been brought up numerous times in the past. These claims came well before the current issue surrounding one man's horrendous presentation on DID- the DSM-4 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 4th Edition) even was made after accusations of Harvard Medical being tied to Mk-Ultra.

Harvard Medical spawned McLean Hospital

People are making an association and are wondering if this was one of the ways that Harvard Medical along with the CIA accessed victims. This wonder does however have no definitive answers from what we can gather and should not be treated as fact.

Additionally many people have reasonable and not unfounded fears that said practices never truly stopped. However, these for the current day and year, 2023 are unfounded claims. A reasonable fear or reasonable feeling still does not always denote truth in what is feared. It is reasonable for us to fear the Christian faith given our history, however it factually is not pure evil and can be practiced healthily. (Not a great comparison but we had to think of something)

The debunked accusations of specifically McLean hospital being involved was from 1987 in which a conspiracy theorist claimed McLean was still doing these horrific experiments and tortures. The thing that was disproven was that they had continued to be involved, not that they had never been involved. To our understand the difference in these two cases is that there is numerous possible claims that McLean may have been involved in the past but only one which claimed this from a very untrustworthy source.

There is currently no evidence to prove they were not involved. However there is also seemingly no evidence to prove Mclean Hospital were involved as well. Due to the connections in administration in that time period, it is reasonable to conclude that it is plausible that Mclean did contribute all the way back when MK-Ultra was active, just as much as it is reasonable to conclude it is plausible they did not.

Does this mean it should be treated as fact? No. But the RAMCOA survivors who immediately learn of these connections and assume the worst are having a reasonable emotional reaction when paired with what RAMCOA survivors like us have experienced. The feelings are reasonable, but the fact of the matter in many cases just seems to not be there.

By denying the plausibility you are plausibly denying the experience of victims who are still alive to this day. As such many people (us included) still feel weird about definitively saying that there is no chance this happened in the past. However we must be fully aware and acknowledge that there is not enough evidence of this being the case, therefore it is wrong from a factual point to say that they were involved.

Again, does this reflect the modern day?

Absolutely not. I would say that to our knowledge the majority of doctors at the hospital who are (especially) younger than their 50 are not involved nor should be implicated. Anyone who was a child when Mk-Ultra launched and/or concluded should be automatically removed from a list of possible perpetrators. Additionally it will only harm what we do believe could be good doctors who had no idea of these things, many people today are far removed from things like Mk-Ultra, many if not most may have had no awareness of the past allegations.

You can address the fact that worries or claims that McLean Hospital or Harvard Medical today are doing this as false, without fully denying the plausibility of a dark past. Especially when it comes to Harvard Medical.

(Side note, just because something came form another organization does not necessarily mean they did the same practices. Additionally, I would argue, given the history of government projects only those directly involved with the experimentation would be aware of what was occurring and not all workers even within the hospital).

We took it upon ourselves to look into it initially- we already knew about the Unabomber being an Mk-Ultra victim, we only recently knew he had ties to Harvard Medical. And yes, we have found a few claims that the specific hospital he was put in when tortured was McLean, but those have only been on articles that require one to sign up or buy fully access which we are not doing.

Please just try and understand why some RAMCOA survivors have reacted the way they have, do more than just look on reddit or see that one lunatic claiming McLean was continuing on Mk-Ultra in 1987. Because what many are doing is resorting to a long time form of systemic oppression against RAMCOA survivors. The default of calling all of them delusional and conspiracy theorists. It is not delusion to see something so similar to your experience and make a connect even if it is faulty, delusion is another mental health issue entirely.

Acknowledge how things can be emotional reactions, while also acknowledging the bits of truth within those reactions. We do not think that this being brought up in response to specifically the DID video is good- we think it creates fear and leads to fear mongering about hospitals and doctors. This is something that should be brought up and addressed in its own right. But the timing was poor, and the reasons behind it were filled and fueled with people who were triggered in a variety of ways and were not actually discussing it out of concern for the victims. (We are usually not big on what the motivations behind something are but when your motivations end up seeping through and possibly harming an important discussion it does become a concern.)

Can you explain what a shell alter is and what their purpose is? /gen

Shell alters are a dissociated system member who is fronting all the time, or almost all the time. They often lack elaboration. Shells work as an interface between the rest of the system & the outside world by never leaving front, and having the rest of the system either blending with them temporariality or being forced into co-consciousness. This serves a few purposes; make the system more covert, mask inter-switch amnesia, blunt or filter out emotions/urges/etc. from the rest of the system, and more. It's uncommon, but there can be multiple shells one system, serving different subroles.

In some cases of OSDD-1a, the shell is the "unified" identity. Think like, if the system is made up of "angry Sarah", "scared Sarah", "work Sarah", etc., that shell would be the "Sarah" identity.

They're most commonly seen in OSDD-1a, but can come up in other forms of multiplicity, like DID, but typically when RAMCOA is in the picture. Although it can be daunting, healing with a shell is possible. You can reached out to them, they can be integrated, they gain more elaboration, etc etc. Whatever healing path works for you.

We don't have a shell, but I'm sure some pwDID/OSDD on this hellsite (affectionate) have talked about their experiences with them more in depth. There isn't a ton of research on them — many sites point to Alison Miller's books, but there's no actual like, raw data, just summations of what's she's found in her practice/case studies — so take that as you will.

Each shell is a different, and different systems may use slightly different definitions. Hopefully this was a good overview. -Aisling

Heres a reminder for you that being dissociated isn't limited to the common misconception where you are frozen in place, incapable of doing anything or even thinking, or experiencing a significant time gap,, those things.

And while its hard to spot the milder signs when you're dissociating, don't worry i got you covered by bringing awareness, im showing what those signs could look like:

Dazing/blanking out several times

Hands looking weird (depersonalization)

Surroundings also looking weird (derealization)

Feeling detached emotionally, physically, or both

Light-headedness

Less reactive in responding

Forget things more often

Unable to focus or keep concentration straight

When you have multiple of those signs at once, then chances are you are dissociating (extra note that it can also co-occur with derealization/depersonalization). While it can be caused by various factors, i would like to add that it may or may not get worse as time passes and no one wants that thing to snowball until it got too bad (remember, preventing now is better than dealing later) so having a few tips would help:

Grounding (sensory): listening to music, feeling different textures, paying attention to things in your surroundings, trying different fragrant or scents, have some snacks to occupy your senses

Grounding (physically): feel your chest as you breathe, get your body moving to redirect focus, splash some cold water, hold something you can squeeze (such as a stress ball)

Practice being mindful. As it can help you re-anchor back to reality faster, regulate better, building more resilience, increasing awareness of oneself's state

Sometimes we go do our day without giving a thought that were detached from reality, usually by going autopilot and scrolling through social medias without being aware (well, atleast for me) and forget lots of things while being dysregulated at the end. So by being aware of the mild signs and incorporating grounding skills im sure memory gaps and those funny aftermath stuffs won't be a problem anymore, have a good day peeps.

- j

I lost the posts we wanted to respond to, but I think I remember what we were gonna say

🗝️🏷️ RAMCOA with vague examples, syscourse?

Highly Complex DID

What “Complex” Means:

From what we’ve read, it seems like Complex refers to the specific disorder’s criteria. C-PTSD is PTSD with a different presentation; in this case, multiple/prolonged trauma causes difficulty tracing symptoms in the same ways as other PTSD cases. C-DID is DID with a different presentation; here it’s more intricate mechanisms that lead treatment down another path. Even CDD, which is dissociation into self-states instead of one dissociating self-state. The C just means that thing, plus some extra. There are going to be cases where a Complex patient is actually more simple to care for than a non-Complex patient — it’s just a matter of narrowing it down with more criteria.

Highly Complex:

As far as I know, there are no other communities that use Highly Complex as a label. It’s a specific word to whittle down the topic even further; C-DID but with more specifiers. For HC-DID, the specifiers are programming and structuring. Every human who experienced programming and lived is a RAMCOA survivor. Not every RAMCOA survivor considers themself a HC-DID system. Some survivors didn’t form systems at all. Others don’t think their system qualifies. Maybe people just don’t want to identify themselves this way. Even if it were a medical diagnosis — it’s not — forcing people to use labels they don’t want is rude at best.

What RAMCOA Is:

RAMCOA stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, Organized Abuse. Surviving any of those is enough to belong in the community.

Ritual Abuse - maltreatment (of anyone) including ceremonies or traditions. It can be anything from religious sacrifice to underage marriage.

Mind Control - manipulation of psychological processes. I genuinely don’t know if there has to be negative intent or a specific plan from the abuser to qualify, but even targeted McDonald’s ads make use of mind control (probably not abusively, I’ve never looked into that).

Organized Abuse - maltreatment that involves multiple perpetrators collaborating in their perpetration. If two people meet at a bar and then hurt a child together, that’s enough. It can be elaborate groups like churches or criminal groups, but the only requirement is more than one perp.

It can be one or a mix of any, but it’s still RAMCOA. Usually, the DID community uses RAMCOA to talk about surviving programming (Trauma-Based Mind Control for the purpose of creating a system), and we label our systems Highly Complex.

Extra Criteria:

To be Highly Complex, survivors are usually closest to C-DID. But wait, there’s more!

HC-DID systems also receive:

Programming - I only know of TBMC being used to split off dissociative alters, but I’d budge on that if someone knew otherwise. Abusers control the child (body) by causing calculated suffering until they get the results they want. Perps split off alters with goals in mind for them, and continue to break them until they fit the desires of the abusers. This control extends to every other aspect of HC-DID, and is the reason another label exists at all.

Layers - different dimensions of innerworld. Sometimes this looks like literal other realms inside, but it could also be like floors of a building or planets or other separate worlds. Layers are often assigned a name or cue that allows outsiders to maneuver a system’s landscape from the external world. Perps don’t go in as much as they bring out, by assigned alter or other cued manipulations.

Subsystems - alters with alters, except also programmed. Cues are assigned to each subsystem alter as well, usually related to the subsystem as a collective. Just like programmed singlet alters, subsystems can be arranged by outsiders for memories, tasks, etc.

Sidesystems - kind of multiple systems within the metasystem. Groups might be contained in a separate innerworld pocket, unwilling to communicate with other alters, or otherwise unreachable in the same way other groups are. These sidesystems usually have a collective task, or function as a whole other system in the body. Details of what they do and why are also conditioned.

Programs - conditioning attached to cues. Programs might force amnesia, give body memories, set off chains of tasks, or any other typical or atypical system capability. Programs might be perceived as wires and buttons, or files, or whatever else programmers decide.

Not all HC-DID systems will have the same level of programming. Not all programmed systems will be more “complex” that other systems. Having a term to describe our unique experiences helps a lot of survivors to feel understood, especially if they’re already open about their past.

RAMCOA survivors are kept in a strange position online and irl. We’re used as examples of “unimaginable trauma” and “extreme abuse”, but are largely told to sit down and shut up; we’re too dangerous to speak up about what was done to us, too unbelievable, or too much at all. Finding help is a nightmare, sucks butt for everyone involved, and is fairly necessary for long term recovery. Like many systems, we beat the odds time and time again to call ourselves “survivors” instead of “victims”. Like many systems, we are rejected by most of society. Unlike most systems, we are a secret within system communities.

Being Complex is not being special, it’s just a haughty way to say there are extra requirements. Recovery for many systems is already a stretch. For HC-DID systems, we are healing the impossible.

I am seriously thinking about making a big post about this

Can people stop pushing the idea that you shouldn’t share information about RAMCOA at all? Yeah, sharing detailed information about programming publicly or with people who don’t need it can be dangerous, but it’s already such a taboo topic to the point where a lot of survivors feel like they can’t even speak up about what happened to them. And they have the right to, they endured it.

If you’re saying “be careful how much you share about programming” that’s valid. I’ve seen a lot of people saying that and that makes perfect sense. But “don’t talk about RAMCOA” do people not realize that’s what many of the perpetrators of this type of abuse want? They want total silence. They go to insane lengths just to ensure survivors can’t talk about this. They thrive off secrecy. They’re protected by people’s ignorance. This is a widespread issue that requires a societal effort to put a stop to. How will that happen if people aren’t educated on the fact that this happens, at the very least?

I know a lot of people can use this info to hurt people or get some sick pleasure from hearing about the abuse. But that doesn’t take away the need for this to be heard and known about. Stop silencing survivors.