Elden Ring Theory - Blog Posts

This is my head canon now

It's just perfect

The truth about the Golden Lineage

Ok sooo I've just had a MASSIVE realization about Godfrey's children with Marika and I need to share it with the Elden Ring lore community. I have no idea if anyone has already put this theory forward, but as soon as it crossed my mind I knew I had to write it down before I forgot about it.

ELDEN RING SPOILERS BELOW.

I had always kind of assumed that Godwyn the Golden was Godfrey and Marika's firstborn child. This is not stated anywhere though, it was no more than an assumption on my behalf. So I began to wonder... what if the omen twins were actually older than Godwyn? What if they were Marika's first children with Godfrey? The Crucible predates the Golden Age of the Erdtree after all...

Once again, I had always assumed that Morgott and Mohg were thrown into the sewers of Leyndell as soon as they were born, which doesn't really make any sense considering:

- They are both quite well-spoken. They don't act like they were brought up by giant slugs and rats with no contact with the outside world. They are not like the feral omens we fight in the sewers.

- They had to use special shackles in order to keep them down there. As if... they would try to escape. To go back home. Someone had to make sure they never got out.

- They brought at least one doll with them. Newborn babies don't play with dolls, children do.

- Godfrey's words towards Morgott ("It's been a long while...") and the way he holds his son's dead body imply they once knew each other. They once had some kind of relationship. And I'm inclined to believe that Morgott remembers and loves his father too: as SmoughTown points out in his latest video, the magic seal from which Godfrey's golden ghost appears is the exact same Crucible seal that Morgott uses when he "teleports". Morgott created a spectral protector of the Erdtree in the image of his father (I'm about to cry).

So, if Mo & Mo once lived in the surface, why were they shunned? Well, here comes the crazy part. Once upon a time, in the Age of the Crucible, horns, scales, wings and other beastly parts were considered sacred, divine. They were the manifestation of the power of the Tree, from which all life begins, where all life is blended together. With Godfrey being a man from the Age of the Crucible (his knights are the Crucible Knights), it is possible that his first children with Marika, Mo & Mo, were actually revered when they were born.

However, at some point, something motivated Marika to change the dogma. The conquest of the Mountaintops of the Giants gave way to the Golden Age of the Erdtree. All things Crucible were suddenly frown upon. Lord Godfrey and his warriors were exiled from the Lands Between. And the omen twins had to be forsaken.

LUCKILY the royal couple had produced another child, one more in line with the religious ideals of the new age: Godwyn, a perfectly built golden boy, without any Crucible in him. A strikingly handsome prince, with a gorgeous set of long, androginous, golden hair, who we've only seen wearing a beautifully embroidered skirt. His looks and his fashion sense always reminded me of a certain red-headed champion of the Golden Age of the Erdtree...

Has anyone else noticed that the items related to the Prince of Death require both Faith and Intelligence? I'm talking about the Prince of Death's Staff (allegedly made out of a fragment of Godwyn's corpse) and all of the Death sorceries (which said staff boosts). You know which other items also require both of those stats, right? Well, as far as I know, only Rykard's Magma sorceries and the Golden Order incantations need both Fai and Int to be used. And the Sword of Night and Flame, yes, a Carian heirloom hidden in their Manor.

HUH. I wonder what the Carian royal family and Golden Order Fundamentalism have in common... OH, I KNOW. They are both connected to Radagon, the champion who aspired to be complete by dominating both sorceries and incantations.

My point is... What if Godwyn is not Godfrey's? What if he's Radagon's? What if he was Marika's first attempt at having descendants by herself? She was devastated by Godwyn's death because he was her favorite, her perfect golden boy, a personification of the Golden Order and a living proof that she was the One True God.

Now let's have some fun with this theory. We all know about Miquella's obsession with Godwyn ("O brother, lord brother..."). Some have speculated that the statue of the older figure embracing young Miquella and Malenia in Loretta's arena in the Haligtree might be Godwyn, because it doesn't sport Marika/Radagon's signature braid and the asset is apparently flat-chested (according to Vaati's Miquella Lore video).

Did either Miquella or Godwyn know the truth? Was Godwyn particularly protective of the Empyrean twins because they were more than just his half-siblings? I honestly don't know, buy it's not hard to imagine what they felt after their older brother's murder...

I obviously don't have all the answers, but if all of the above was true, it would mean that the whole Golden Lineage is built on a lie, because the firstborn male heir of Godfrey was not only not the firstborn at all, but he was also not Godfrey's! This would be so GRRM it's insane! Even Godrick's pride and his fondness of Lion iconography becomes all the more ridiculous!

Am I going too far with this? Please let me know if I'm losing my mind over this game.

(Oh and link me to any similar theories if you know of any, because I can't be the only one crazy enough to have thought about this).

My take on the promised consort.

I believe that Radahn held the stars in place when Ranni began fearing her fate. She never wanted to become a puppet to the two fingers, and Radahn knowing this attempted to hold off her destiny for as long as possible. Though he likely knew that it would be an inevitability. The only other two living empyreans were cursed afterall. 

There was no way that Miquella or Malenia would be able to take Marika’s place, the two fingers weren’t even the slightest bit interested in either of them. Malenia was already claimed by the God of Rot and Miquella was perpetually in a state of adolescence. Ranni seems to be the only one who was ever actively bothered by her fingers and I believe this is because they had an intense desire for her to be the next god, assuming Miquella and Malenia as lost causes due to their curse.

I think this is when Miquella came to Radahn with a proposition. He will be seeking godhood. Even if the two fingers had no interest in him, even if the world thought him too small and frail to ascend, he was going to find a way, no matter the consequences. He was determined to become the next God and lead the world into an era of abundance and peace. To fix the mistakes of the past.

He only had one simple request.

“Promise me, you’ll be my consort.”

If Miquella were to ascend then Ranni would be free of her duty. She’d be able to live in peace knowing that she’d never have to be controlled by another's will. She wouldn’t have to become a god, she wouldn’t have to succeed queen Marika. And to top it all off, Radahn would get to play the role of his hero Godfrey. Ushering in a new era alongside a new god.

It was perfect.

That was, until the night of the black knives. The night the world was thrown into chaos. The night that the first demigods fell. And the night that he lost his sister.

Radahn likely wouldn’t have known about Ranni’s plot and would have thought her dead alongside the other victims of the night. Ranni was gone, and with her, so too was Radahns need for Miquella’s age.

I believe Radahn, fueled by grief, rage and the mad taint of his greatrune, denounced Miquella and struck out on his own as a warrior of the shattering. He didn’t need peace, he didn’t need Miquella. All he wanted was to fight. All he wanted now was endless war.

Maybe that would be enough to dull the pain of his loss? Not only the loss of his sibling and father, but also the loss of his purpose.

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Now picture Miquella. Making the final preparations to begin his ascension. Only there’s one problem. His consort has abandoned him at the very last moment. As it turns out, it seems Radahn never really cared for Miquella or his visions for a new age, he was only really in it for his own gain. 

Imagine how devastated Miquella would be. Knowing that yet another one of his plans had fallen apart at the finish line. That the person he trusted to rule alongside him didn’t even hesitate to abandon him when it was no longer convenient for him.

His ascension to godhood would never happen. He would never be able to heal his sister. He would never be able to bring forth an age of compassion. He would never be able to right the wrongs of the past.

He had failed again.

Now imagine how furious this would make his people. How angry his followers and his sister would be to see Miquella rejected at such a pivotal moment. To see him mourning a consortship and an age that would never come to pass.

Is there really any wonder that they chose to march towards Caelid and deliver the promised consort by force?

Probably the mildest head cannon I'll ever share on here, but I like to think that Miquella grew his hair out so long because it was literally the only way he could show his actual age with his appearance. He may have been cursed to never grow, but his hair would always be a clear signifier to his peers that he was much more than he appeared.

I just realised that this idea also tracks with their remembrance. The remembrance we receive from beating them isn’t “remembrance of the promised consort” or “remembrance of the kind” it's “remembrance of a god and a lord” it’s Radahn(Mohg) and Miquella together, as one.

It’s the only remembrance in the entire game that names multiple beings in its title, and to my knowledge, the only one that grants items related to different characters.

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This is sort of an unrelated thought but It’s also worth mentioning that in its description it refers to its owner as “Radahn, consort of Miquella” as if it were one being it was related to, despite it clearly being two. Which reminds me of how Godfrey is in some capacity, Serosh and Hoarah Loux together as one. Neither is ultimately more or less important in making up “Godfrey” as the other. Which could also further explain the striking similarities between Godfrey and Consort of Miquella.

Thinking about how Miquella and Radahn as a single boss are the perfect representation of all 3 demigod sibling groups.

Miquella - Marika & Radagon

Radahn - Rennala & Radagon

Mohg - Marika & Godfrey

Not only that but they also represent all 3 magic types. 

Faith - Miquella’s holy magic

Intelligence  - Radahn’s gravity magic

Arcane - Mohg’s bloodflame magic

The 3 of them converge into one being. Mohg’s body, Radahn’s soul and Miquella’s mind all working in perfect harmony. To become one.

Plot twist:

Radahn initially agreed to be Miquella's consort in order to spare Ranni of her fate of becoming a god, knowing that she wouldn't have to if another were to rise instead. However after she 'died' during the night of the black knives Radahn lost all incentive to uphold his end of the bargain, leading to the battle of Aionia

I was talking to my friend a while back and he mentioned how it's possible that Miquella/St. Trina got into sleep magic to help Malenia because her condition would have made it near impossible for her to sleep properly and I think it makes so much sense. She almost definitely suffers from chronic pain and I can't even begin to imagine how difficult sleep would have been for her (especially since the scarlet rot seems to have mental influence as well). I can totally see Miquella studying sleep aid spells/recourses to help their sister.

Thinking about how Miquella and Radahn as a single boss are the perfect representation of all 3 demigod sibling groups.

Miquella - Marika & Radagon

Radahn - Rennala & Radagon

Mohg - Marika & Godfrey

Not only that but they also represent all 3 magic types. 

Faith - Miquella’s holy magic

Intelligence  - Radahn’s gravity magic

Arcane - Mohg’s bloodflame magic

The 3 of them converge into one being. Mohg’s body, Radahn’s soul and Miquella’s mind all working in perfect harmony. To become one.

My favourite crackpot elden ring theory is that the gloam eyed queen was a demi-human and also Boc’s mother. Allow me to indulge in why this might actually be possible for a moment.

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The biggest point of evidence I have for this is that both Boc’s mother and the GEQ are both said to have been seamstresses. Boc mentions this fact about his mother multiple times throughout his questline and a substantial amount of godskin/GEQ gear have descriptions/motifs that allude to the GEQ sharing this trait (i.e. the godskin stitcher, godskin peeler and the godskin swaddling cloth)

Additionally Boc’s mother also once told him of the legendary golden sewing set and how it was capable of altering the attire of the very gods. Now, why would a random Demi-human mother have such extensive knowledge of royal garbs and the materials one must use to craft/alter them? This seems to imply that she has deeper knowledge of how gods and demigods work as a whole right? Deeper than the common person of the lands between, as if she’s got first hand experience with them.

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My next point is how Demi-human society has a royal hierarchy, literally having queens that lead and protect groups of Demi-humans. To my knowledge, outside of Renalla, Marika and the GEQ herself, this is the only other mention the game has regarding queens. Would it be much of a stretch to assume that the GEQ was a Demi-human queen? Albeit one that commanded much more power than the typical one we discover in game. Though, you may believe that this is incredibly circumstantial, and I wouldn’t blame you.

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So how about the fact that the GEQ, being Demi-human, would 100% have a motive to hunt down the gods. The Demi-humans are arguably one of the most oppressed races in the game, not even having a place in the golden order society as slaves like Trolls and Misbegotten. They’re basically excluded entirely. And who’s sitting at the top of that violent and oppressive society? The gods.

If the Demi-humans did once have a singular queen that ruled them, could you imagine the anger they must have felt? The injustice, the needless cruelty. It would have been one of the few things I can genuinely believe would drive someone to challenge the gods.

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Once again, very circumstantial, I wouldn't blame you for not buying it. But what about the GEQ’s eyes? The “gloam eyes” if you will. The meaning of the word gloam in this name has been a heavily debated topic in the community basically since the game came out, but it seems like the common consensus, when looking at the beast eye, Melina’s sealed eye, the Godskin’s jewels and some of the common meanings of gloam being “dusk” and “twilight”, is that the Gloam eye’s in question would have likely been purple in colour.

Now, why is this relevant? You may be asking. Well, do you know who else in the game had purple or “gloam” eyes?

Demi-human queens.

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Also Farum Azula, good old Farum Azula. The location I theorised used to be the city that the Gloam eyed queen once resided in. Don’t you think it’s interesting just how similar some of the ancient corpses littering the pillars of this place are to Demi-humans? How the beastmen themselves wouldn’t look too out of place within a Demi-human group, ignoring their much thicker coats? Isn’t it interesting how beasts and dragons are the only surviving remnants of this Ancient place? How important they were to the culture? How about the fact that they are masters at incantations, some of the best in the lands that currently exist. The very same magic group that Godslaying flame belongs to. Wouldn’t it make sense for their queen to be just as much of a ‘beast’ as they are? Just as masterful at incantation as they are?

Isn’t it interesting how the eye Maliketh grants us to hunt deathroot, living fragments of destined death, the VIOLET eye is named the “Beast eye” as if it itself once belonged to a beast.

St. Trina's chosen

Thinking about how St. Trina only talks to the player tarnished despite Thiollier's undying loyalty to her.

Thinking about how before traveling with Melina, Torrent belonged to Miquella (and by extension, also Trina)

Thinking about how at some point Torrent was sent out in search of a new master

Thinking about how Ranni's doll body requires her to sleep

Thinking about how St. Trina can visit people in their dreams

Thinking about how “torrent’s former master” asked Ranni to deliver the spirit tuning bell to whoever he chose to serve next

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Did St. Trina put everything in motion? Was she the one who set Torrent out on his search for a new master? Was she the one who asked Ranni to give us the spirit tuning bell? Could it have been one final, desperate plea to find anyone capable of stopping her other half before it was too late for him? Does St. Trina only commune with us because she knows that we're the one who Torrent chose as his new master? Is that why this character, that we never meet before now seemingly has full faith in requesting our aid? because her trusted steed was the one to bring us to her? From the very moment Torrent found us washed up in the lands between, were we destined to find our way to Miquella's/St. Trina's path?

y'know, it only just hit me recently but like... Marika would definitely have fucking hated modern Godrick right?

Forcing weaker and more vulnerable individuals into horrific experiments of fusing flesh is basically exactly the sort of thing she dealt with growing up under the Hornsent. The practice of grafting would have been a really sore spot for Marika, which is probably why it seems like it only came into practice during the shattering.

Godrick is lucky he started experimenting with grafting after Marika was imprisoned because if she was still around she probably would have come crashing through his roof with her hammer and make Radagon's grab attack look soft.

desperate to do a Mohg deep dive after all the DLC content on him. There's just... so much.

Ansbach's entire demeanour seems completely backwards compared to modern Mohgwyn loyalists we know of. He holds Mohg is such incredibly high regard, and is probably one of, if not the most respectful warrior in a fromsoft game. Were the other pureblood knights like this? What happened to them? Why is Ansbach the only one left?

What could Mohg have been like to install such loyalty and respect in one of his followers, to the point where they'd face a newly born god just to do right in his name?

What caused Ansbach to decide to challenge Miquella in the first place? What tipped him off that Mohg was being used? How long were they interacting before this happened?

Was the Mohgwyn Dynasty always a vicious murder cult? was their once more to the group before Mohg's charming? If there wasn't, why didn't Miquella use his bewitchment of Mohg to stop it? Did he indorse Mohg's actions? Did he incite them.

"Miquella being alone in Caelid post battle of Aionia doesn't make any sense timeline wise"

Have people forgotten that half of this family can astral project?

Y'know, I've been thinking about the vow between Miquella and Radahn a lot recently, and I feel like I've come up with a possible explanation for why Radahn seemingly agreed at first but later backed out of the deal.

If Radahn truly did agree to become Miquella's consort, what are the chances that it was made under the pretense that he'd be the next elden lord in the golden order? Continuing the legacy and age of both his personal hero and father, alongside Miquella as the new god of the age, but things remaining overall the same.

Once Miquella became disillusioned with Marika's age and decided to do his own thing, and create his own age, Radahn probably lost interest in becoming his consort because he wouldn't be the lord of the age he loved anymore, infact he would be a major factor in it ending. Something that he historically does not stand for.

This probably lead to a disagreement between the two that lead to Malenia invading Selia. Miquella feeling betrayed because Radahn was now refusing to uphold his promise, and Radahn feeling betrayed because Miquella turned his back on the golden order he loved and was now trying to bring it to an end.

I'm genuinely shocked that so many people were blindsided by the reveal that Miquella was a bit fucked up to the point that some even think that it's a recon. Because honestly there were always signs that something was a bit off with him.

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First of all, and most obvious is that he took part in the shattering. Having Malenia go on a war path across the entirety of the lands between in his name. Even without the context of why this was done, it's still a pretty dubious thing to do.

There's also the fact that him and Malenia were the aggressors in the battle of Aionia. The fight happened just outside of Selia. Right outside of Radahn's home. She rocked up to the town he was protecting looking for a fight. A fight that, may I remind you, devastated Selia and other surrounding locations.

Miquella had done a copious amount of research into Malenia's affliction in search of a cure, I refuse to believe that he didn't have at least some sort of idea as to what could happen if she was pushed far enough. And he still allowed her to enter a battle to the death with radahn that ended up not only ruining both of them, but the entirety of Caelid too. All while he watched on from the sidelines.

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Moving on to a much shorter point, his power to compel affection. A power similar to the bewitching branches, an item that he may have also directly developed, which allows one to override the will of another person to such an extent that they'll turn on their allies and fight by your side.

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This point's something that I brought up in the past, and something that borderlines on headcanon but I think it's worth mentioning.

So, you know castle Sol. The castle in which Miquella attempted a ritual to revive Godwyn. The castle in which half of the key to his haligtree is guarded. The castle that watches directly over said haligtree. The castle in which Miquella definitely has very close ties to.

That castle Sol.

Did you ever notice that it contains a pretty sizeable albernuric torture chamber? One fitted with tools and contraptions that'd make Rykard proud, including the black dumpling.

Now there's no way to prove that Miquella had anything to do with this. He's been absent from castle Sol for decades. I just think it's notable that a castle so synonymous with him has a torture chamber full of the very people he's vowed to fight for.

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Now that's not quite everything. There's also a few more points, like how he's dubbed as the most fearsome empyrean and even some stuff with St. Trina like her cult that developed sleep inducing weaponry to forcibly spread her teachings (though there's no proof she endorsed this), but I think I've made my point. Miquella's always been kind of off. There was just enough ambiguity surrounding him to give his actions the benefit of the doubt. But those actions were still there.

Shadow of the Erdtree spoilers

It just occurred to me that if Miquella wanted Mohg to stop his murder cult shenanigans then it was fully in his power to make that happen, as we see with his influence over Leda. So that just begs the question of why he wouldn't stop him.

It definitely wasn't a boundary thing as Miquella's been shown time and time again to not care less about how the opposite party feels when it comes to bewitchment.

I also doubt it was solely to get Mohg killed for his corpse either, because Mohg already had a massive target on his back just by proxy being a shardbearer. There was no need for him to continue the blood cult thing so violently for someone to come after him.

So why would Miquella allow Mohg to continue ravaging the lands between? He's one of the most powerful figure heads in the game and definitely has some of, if not the most followers aswell. Varre, Nerijus, all of the sanguine nobles, Anastasia and Eleanora all travel the lands between causing Chaos and Miquella does nothing. It's almost like he wants this to happen.

It gets me thinking about Eleanora and Yura... How despite being a proud knight she renounced everything for seemingly no reason, to become a bloodthirsty killer. How she devoted herself to Mohg despite holding the very item capable of countering him, as if she actively opposed him at some point. How she seemed almost bewitched by bloodlust. How the festering finger the killers have seemingly has a hold on them, to the point where Yura believes slicing it off would be enough to free her. As if her actions are no longer her own, and haven't been for a long, long time.

...

Maybe Miquella didn't want Mohg to stop.

Maybe he helped him continue for as long as possible.

The stronger the body, the stronger his consort would be when he returns.

Like raising a pig for the slaughter.

It's absolutely heart breaking.

something else that I can't stop thinking about is how good Ansbach is despite being a follower of the Mohgwyn dynasty. Throughout the entire base game, all of Mohg followers are so cruel and twisted. All they care for is shedding blood, no matter who's it might be. But Ansbach is different. He's kind, and loyal and forgiving. And seeing someone like that hold Mohg in such high regards… It just makes me wonder what he and his dynasty might have been like before Miquella sunk his claws into Mohg's heart.

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This isn't even touching upon the fact that Radahn himself almost definitely rejected Miquella's request to be his consort. The dude's a golden order loyalist that thrives on the battle ground. I don't see him suddenly siding with Miquella to make the world a "gentler place." Especially since him and Malenia got into such a violent battle during the shattering. And how there's no record anywhere in the game about the connection between Miquella and Radahn.

Because it's entirely one sided.

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I feel so incredibly bad for everyone Miquella used his powers to manipulate. They all deserved better.

Mohg deserves an apology

Knowing that he was used and manipulated all along hurts, but the fact that his corpse was violated and disrespected in such a way actually makes me want to vomit. Mohg didn't deserve this. He didn't deserve to be bewitched he didn't deserve to be fed pretty lies that made him go mad he didn't deserve to be used as fodder for the tarnished and he didn't deserve to treated like this in death. It makes me so sad. At least morgott had a choice, at least morgott died in his father's arms. Mohg gets nothing. Nothing but desecrated and disrespected. The only one who fought for his honor was ansbach. the amount of pain he must have felt knowing his beloved lord and master was used as a puppet for so long, only to be desecrated and used to feed miquellas selfish wish. Miquella was never once a victim. Mohg was the victim all along. And we don't even get a fitting consolation prize after avenging him.

Do you know how grossed out I am. I was like wait why does radahn have horns on his arms and then the realization hits me because it's mohgs body they used. Miquella used mohgs dead body as the vessel for radahn. And you kill them both. In the end I guess radahn got what he wanted he wanted to be related to Godfrey. Just sucks he had to violate mohgs body to do that.

Even with the recent developments with Messmer, I personally still believe that the smouldering butterfly is supposed to represent Melina. The main reason is because of the butterfly's main use as kindling.

Messmer might have a lot of fire stuff going on, but Melina embodies the butterfly much more. Not only was she seemingly born burned and bodiless, much like the smouldering butterfly is born eternally burning, but she also acts as kindling to burn the erdtree in a similar way the butterfly does for crafting items.

The butterfly's represent the main curses of all 3 of the youngest siblings. Malenia's being rotted, Miquella's appearing eternally young and Melina's being burned and inevitably used as kindling.

I personally don't see the connection to Messmer other than the fact that they both share fire motifs. And even then, he's presumably not a part of Malenia and Miquella's sibling group as he's likely one of the oldest demigods, so it wouldn't make too much sense for him to be the third butterfly in the trinity.

Y’know, something peculiar I’ve noticed while looking through item descriptions is how absent Marika seems to be in all of her children's lives. Rennala, Radagon and Godfrey are all either outright mentioned in things revolving some of their children, or are heavily hinted at within other parts of the game

i.e Abductor virgin’s protecting Rya Lucaria academy, something Rykard likely chose to do to protect his mother. 

Rykard and Radahn both once having high standing positions in the golden order, likely due to Radagon.

Despite Radahn directly looking up to Godfrey he still wore his fathers red hair with incredible pride, even though it was something Radagon hated about himself.

Rennala was the one to introduce Ranni to the dark moon and other celestial entities.

Radagon and Miquella have both gifted each other incantations that they had developed for one another.

While brief, Godfrey holds Morgott in his arms as he fades into grace, being there for him in a way he was unable to when he was younger.

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But Marika… doesn’t seem to have anything. No comment of her doing anything or developing anything with any of her children, no small interactions that made it into item description flavour text. Even when it comes to her golden child Godwyn, there’s practically nothing.

For a while now I’ve wondered why this was. Why did Marika seem to be so absent in all of her children's lives? She has 9 direct descendants and not one seems to have a notable experience with her. But then after watching the new cinematic trailer, something dawned on me.

What if it was Messmer?

What if the things Messmer did in the name of Marika and her order during the shadow land war were so monstrous and unforgivable, to the point where the land of shadow was hidden away and he himself was erased from history that she just couldn’t bring herself to attempt a connection with the rest of her children?

Afterall, Marika seems to hate fire with a passion. Anything and everything in the lands between that has any connection to it is something she tries to snuff out. The giants and their forge, the crucible and their fire breathing abilities, the dragons, even the omens have bloodflame magic if Morgott and Mohg are anything to go off of. Even the phrase “flame of ambition” seeming to be a very negative term is something that’s throwing shade at the idea of fire.

And what is it that Messmer is so well known for?

His flame. Messmer's flame. The very same flame he used to purge the land of shadows.

thinking long and hard about Godwyn and Fortissax's friendship like

>the dragons begin a war with the golden order

>Godwyn and Fortissax become “good friends” which brings an era of peace between the golden order and the dragons

>Godwyn goes on to begin the golden lineage with a completely unmentioned partner

>dragons are known to take the form of humans and even have relations with them, as seen with Vyke and Fortissax's sister Lanssax

>One of Godwyn’s many descendants is Godrick, who refers to the dragon in his arena as “kindred one”

>While Godwyn was the first demigod to fall during the night of the black knives, it’s implied that many others followed at the hands of the assassins. Due to the rest of the known descendants of Marika being alive, and no one else having a child pre-shattering it can be inferred that Godwyn's bloodline was specifically targeted for some reason. Since those are the only other demigods that existed at the time.

>Godwyn is assassinated and because him and Fortissax are such “Good friends” Fortissax proceeds to enter godwyns mind and spends decades, possibly centuries attempting to fight off the deathblight from within him, eventually succumbing to it themselves but still unwilling to abandon their “good friend” regardless.

Queen Marika the eternal and the power of bewitching

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Y'know, it's interesting that Marika also seemed to have a similar "mind control" power that Miquella is often sited as having.

"The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection."

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While it's something that isn't heavily explored in game (to the point where I don't see anyone discussing it) Roderika theorizes that Marika cursed Hewg to eternally craft weapons for the remainder of his life. And it's straight up stated that this "cursing power" was used on the fire giant to force it into protecting the giants forge in the name of the erdtree.

"The Fire Giant is a survivor of the War against the Giants. Upon realizing the flames of their forge would never die, Queen Marika marked him with a curse. "O trifling giant, mayest thou tend thy flame for eternity.""

-

So Marika definitely seems to have a similar power, possibly even being the person Miquella inherited his off of in the first place.

But could this go even further than just Hewg and the fire giant? How many others could she have cursed over the years? What are the chances that Radagon suddenly up and leaving his family to become second elden lord wasn't actually his decision at all? Miriel himself states that it's a ongoing mystery as to why Radagon would do it.(alongside why he was chosen to become elden lord at all)

"The mystery endures, to this day... As to why Lord Radagon would cast Lady Rennala aside... and moreover...why a mere champion would be chosen for the seat of Elden Lord"."

The thing I find really important is that the question isn't just about why he'd be chosen as elden lord, but also why he'd cast Rennala aside at all. To me, this implies that Radagon did indeed care for Rennala, to the point where even with the temptation of becoming the second lord of the order he loved so much, it still seemed strangely out of character for him to take that opportunity over his family. As if he would never do that.

That is unless, he didn't take that opportunity by choice.

Afterall, even after leaving Rennala, he still clings to the only thing he has left of her, the golden order greatsword. And on top of that, he left his red wolf to protect her from harm, and even gifted her the amber egg before his departure. (Though I'd argue that that did far more bad than good for her mental state.)

"Telltale signs betray that this was once the greatsword bequeathed to him by his first wife, Rennala."

-

Ok so Radagon could have been cursed by Marika, and much like Hewg with his smithing and the fire giant with the forge, Radagon might have been cursed to protect the golden order as its elden lord, which would eventually backfire horrendously when Marika decided to turn against that very same order.

Admittedly I am kind of stretching here but everyone she cursed seems to be "cursed" with a specific goal in mind. Forge a god slaying weapon, Protect the giants forge. So it's not totally out of the question that she also cursed Radagon with the goal of "be the elden lord."

It would certainly explain why even after years trapped in the tree and barely even being alive anymore, he still fought tooth and nail to protect his order. He cannot give up because he's no longer physically capable of giving up. Much like Hewg and the giant. That is unless they die of course.

-

But it could go even further than that. What about Maliketh? It appears he's just loyally following the orders of Marika but that's what it always looks like! It looks like that with Hewg. It looks like that with the fire giant and it looks like that with Maliketh aswell. Despite seeming utterly miserable both as Maliketh and Gurranq, he carries on following her orders for years.

We have no idea how long he spent in the Farum Azula. Time doesn't work properly there. For all we know, he could be the oldest being in the game by the time we get to him. And yet after all that time his resolve never wavers. Even after being "betrayed" by Marika.

"Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean. Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him."

And much Like Hewg, Fire Giant and Radagon, Maliketh is also ordered to carry out a specific goal. Which is protecting destined death.

Forge the god slaying weapon.

Protect the Giants Forge.

Be elden lord.

Guard Destined death.

-

Many people, including myself have sited Miquella's connection to the bewitching branch and power to "compel affection" as evidence that he might not be as benevolent as he seemed. But what if we've got it all wrong? What if we shouldn't be being suspicious of Miquella for having this power, but instead the person he inherited it off of?

-

Now there is someone else that Marika may have cursed. Well, a group of someone's actually. I saved this till the end because it's the most "out there" part of this theory but...

Spoken echoes of Queen Marika linger here as well.

Shall I share them with you?

In Marika's own words.

Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices...

...What if it wasn't the power from shards of the elden ring that corrupted the Demi-gods and led to the shattering wars?

What if it was the power of suggestion? The power of bewitchment?

What if it was Marika?

Rykard and the Night of the black knives.

Y’know after thinking about it for a while, I think Rykard's involvement in the night of the black knives could run a little deeper than just being a co conspirator. What if he was the person who actually did the deed?

Not on Godwyn mind you, we already know that was all the black knife assassins handy work. But there is one other corpse that is left unaccounted for.

What if he was the one who killed Ranni and carved the cursemark into her back?

-

I know there’s no evidence in game that says anything about this but… it had to have been someone right? Someone other than Ranni I mean. She’s metal as fuck, but it would have been incredibly hard to carve such a specific symbol into her own back. Especially since failure would mean certain death. 

And I also don’t think it would have been some random black knife assassin either. It’s certainly possible but looking at everything revolving them, their alliance seemed shaky at best, and they may not have even known about Ranni's half of the plot to begin with. No, I don't think she would have trusted them to do it. But I do believe she’d trust Rykard. They were already in on this together, and assuming he wasn’t part of the heist itself then there’s only really one other role he could have played in the event. 

-

And going off of purely in game mechanics, he definitely has the stats to wield a black knife blade. If you compare the stat requirements for the black knife and Rykards own blasphemous blade, then they match up pretty well. He would be able to use one.

-

And then we've got Ranni's body itself, which is burnt beyond recognition. Which is strange for a black knife killing, since they have no inherent fire damage, and while they do seem to have some sort of burning affect, it's never as bad as how scorched Ranni's corpse is. We never see this sort of damage done by a black knife again.

This leads me to believe that Ranni's body may have been burnt after the fact. Possibly as one final middle finger to the Two Fingers and the GW for trying to control her fate. One last 'fuck you' by desecrating the holy flesh they bestowed upon her.

And who do we know that has access to fire powers? Or more specifically Magma powers?

Rykard. The lord of blasphemy himself.

Your honour, I rest my case.

btw I'm calling it now that those eye markings that Melina and Ranni have are actually marks of empyreans. (which would also make Melina herself one aswell.)

I just think it's slightly too suspect that we never see the full face of a living empyrean in the game.

Marika has her eyes covered in the intro and is missing one half of her face in the ending (the perfect place for an eye marking to have been without leaving any evidence)

Malenia's upper face has been affected by the rot and thus no eye marking would be visible.

Miquella's face is also never properly shown in game. Even in the shadow of the erdtree teaser it is kept out of shot of the camera.

And while Ranni does have an eye marking on her puppet body, we have no idea what her original one might have had, as it's been burnt beyond recognition and no depictions of living Ranni exist in game.

Even if it isn't the eye marking, there's been a very deliberate choice to keep empyrean's faces hidden throughout the game and I feel like it means something.

It's not really implied very heavily in lore but I've always subscribed to the theory that the greatrunes negatively affect their demi-gods, since most greatrune holders have been trapped into never ending cycles of trying to amass power/accomplish a specific goal.

Rykard, Mohg and Godrick are all similarly running in circles trying to gain power without actually doing anything with it and Rennala is endlessly trying to birth something before we take her greatrune off of her.

The only real exceptions to this are Radahn, because he's lost his mind, Malenia, because she's only just woken up for the first time since the shattering wars and Morgott because... IDK, I've got nothing for Morgott, he's just built different I guess. (Though you could argue that him hunting tarnished and perpetuating the status quo is his endless cycle)

All active people who own a greatrune shard, demi-god or not, have fallen into some sort of self destructive, never ending cycle.

fuck, if you really wanna push this theory Maliketh is holding a greatrune in the form of the rune of death and he's litterelly been stuck in a timeless structure for the entire shattering.

I feel like this is also implied because Ranni decided to cast aside her greatrune, this being significant because she’s the only demi-god who can actually accomplish their end goal by the finale of the game and isn't just running in circles.

Screw Marika's motivations. I want to know what the fuck is up with Melina and Ranni. Why do they seem like 2 halves of the same whole?

Why are they so similar design wise? Why are they both "burned and bodiless"? Why are they the only characters that know torrent on a first name basis? Why do they both share the same closed eye aesthetic? Why do their faces complete eachother if you overlap them? Why do these two, seemingly completely unrelated characters have so much in common? What the fuck is going on?!

-

Semi side rant incoming but what if those eye markings that Melina and Ranni have are markings of an Empyrean? I mean, other than Ranni have we ever actually seen the full, undamaged face of an Empyrean before? By the time we see Malenia, Marika and even to a certain extent Ranni’s own face they’re all damaged to the point where any marking would be long gone (and we just straight up never see Miquella’s face) and we conveniently also never see a proper painting or depiction of any of the Empyreans faces ever throughout the game. Sure there’s a couple statues here and there but I’d believe that tattoo/mark details would be left out of that sort of stuff.

I used to be so invested into what Elden Ring lore nerds are doing and nowadays I just do not give a fuck. Because these cunts are so focused on getting things "right" instead of making them INTERESTING.

Star Theory: Elden Ring outer gods and the 'nature of the universe'

(I'm feeling particularly neurotic so you're suffering with me)

SO, in case you aren't aware, which is entirely possible i barely knew of it before, but stars have life cycles! Which is weird, right? And the fact that it's never brought up in Elden Ring despite the fact there's this sense that Markia and everyone is supposed to be old as hell? And there's an entire academy dedicated to learning of the stars?

Well, dear reader, do I have the explanation for you! This will be long winded, so bear with me! And if there's someone who's already done this, you should probably listen to them instead!

first and foremost, stars are made up of conflicting forces, gravity pushing in, heat pushing out. But, to keep things more poetic, and in line with the whole fantasy aspect of elden ring, let's call it the Devouring aspect and the Creation aspect. Gravity creates pressure, trying to devour itself, but creates it's own feed to feast upon. Easy to follow?

As such, everything exists in perpetuity, creating itself and living in cycles? Or more importantly, every action has its equal opposite reaction. Life begets death, so on so forth. So everything lives in duality, having one part of itself necessary to oppose to creat more of it.

now, that's just how a star works, but there's more than one type of star, and thus life cycles.

this is a more rudimentary visual, but it gets the point across, alright?

Quick to start, let's cover backstory (or at least what I assume the backstory is) of the One Great, Greater Will, and what not for a quick understanding. But keep the visual in mind!

First, we can safely (?) assume that the One Great from Hyetta's dialog is likely in reference to the big bang in some capacity, so that's the beginning of the universe covered. One Greats dead, created everything, blah blah blah.

Next! As said in something about the glinstone sorcerer Azur(?) he witnessed the Greater Will's death, where it likely then became a Black Hole (the mass death of stars around it?) [Comet Azur and the Primeval Current is likely in reference to the nature of the expanding universe, akin to how water spreads out from a droplet of water, just on a mass scale i guess, given it almosg looks like rushing water to me]

Wverything after that and during when the Greater Will was up and running? no idea, not really important for my argument anyways.

So where does that leave Metyr and Elden Beast? Well, Metyr has the Neutron star attack, and given that she's the prodigal daughter of a dead god, it seems like she witnessed at least some of the death maybe? Or is at least aware of the 'end' of gods in something capacity, maybe. Elden Beast however seem more like stabilized core of a star given its veins of gold, and given that the Greater Will was a God of Order, it makes sense that at least one of them seems somewhat stable. (Sorry Metyr)

On to the outer gods and the necessity of duality!

As you can see, there are multiple forms of stars! Red and Yellow as main focal, with maybe othefs?

So! Let's start with the obvious,

The Blood Star- red? Check. Small or large? Eh. Formless Mother? What?

As I said about duality, and stars, one begets the other. The Devouring agent and the Creation agent.

Specifically, let's take a quick detour through religious inspiration. And I'm gonna make this quick.

*There is this belief that a whole being is made up two people, one masculine one feminine. Greeks had it in the creation mythos of man, and there's probably a Buddah or two that have the same shtick, unfortunately I'm not overly familiar with that game, but you get my point.

And in some eastern beliefs, i believe Taoism, there is a dichotomy between the masculine and feminine. One physical and other spiritual, repectively*

Point is, if stars can represent outer gods, and a whole being is made up of two. Than it's likey that Devouring agent and Creation agent have their respective gods conjoined into one star but still separate identities! (So Marika and Radagon?)

-The easiest outer gods to apply this logic to are the ones I mentioned up top, The Blood Star and Formless Mother. Both deal in blood, one masculine and demanding sacrifice of blood in the physical, with the whole history of blind prisoners. while the Formless Mother 'asks' for blood with 'promises' of something in return, a bargain like upping Mohgs wings to a latger size, and has a more creation aspect given the Mother moniker. As well as 'gifting' her blood to people, such as Mohg, and a piece of her flesh in the DLC blood fiends cult cave place that they apparently ate. Perharps, some kind of desire to be devoured in the sense of missing a whole part of the self where life is born from death? Through the pressure of the star then creating heat?

-Next would be: The Rot! I think that with the whole Lake of Rot being a more red-red color, it was defeated by the blind swordsman(? right?) when it was in its masculine phase, and then switched over into the more feminine side, trying to spread it's influence through any means necessary as a dying star! Thus taking on a more pinker color through Romina's bud, being 'born anew' by it in some capacity and also seemingly taking nest in feminine figures, Romina and Melania! (Also through Milicent being 'born' of Melania through odd means?)

-The Twin Birds would likely be a blue star in some capacity, likely quite large given that they represent death and all that. However, that's as far as I can get really. And death has its whole thing going on with Godwyn as well and I just don't wanna touch it.

-The Fell God and The God Devoring Serphant (Not the Abyssal Serphant) are kind of intertwined due to proximity, and the giants forge having serphants on it. As well as Rykard and Eiglay being in a volcano, as opposed to the giants forge being on a mountain top surrounded by snow. Life, Death. Fire, Ice. Duality, ya know?

-The Abyssal Serphant likely exists in duality to the One Great rather than something more simple, which is why it snake imagery slips into everything despite everything being born of the One Great. Abyssal Serphant devours, the One Great, creates. Not specifically a star, but it's good to get it out of the way now real quick. But will show up later! And it's similar to Dark Souls!

-The Frenzied Flame, the big doozey. You know how I said everything exists in duality? Well, what better way for duality to exist then for duality to be dual in itself? If you want 2, you can't just have the single number, you need two! So why not 2 and 3? Confused yet? Duality needs duality to be duality. As such, Order is Chaos. That easy.

-The Greater Will and The Frenzied Flame, are two sides of the same coin. Creating order, the other wanting to burn it all down. A microcosm of the One Great and The Abyssal Serphant pretty much. The first wanting to continually exist in perpetuity creating, the other a harbinger of the end itself. Heat death of the universe pretty much, i guess.

-The moons?

I don't wanna talk about the moons. In our guiding stars very own lordly words, Count Ymir, they are simply the closest celestial bodies. (I'm lying)

Okay so what's up with tem? Are they gods? No? Then what are they? If they are gods, then why isn't there a god of the Lands Between? It's a terrestrial body isn't it? If the moon is like greek myth, the titan Selene, where is Gaia?

Well, that's where Marika (and Radagon) come in. So, as we learned in the DLC, a god requires a lord, and when we finish the main game, unless we choose Ranni's ending, we become Marika's consort. So, perhaps it's something similar to such? The necessity of duality?

-My leading theory, with everything else already explained, is that maybe the Greater Will was an outer god, killed Placidsaxes god? In some way? And then needed some kind of 'vessel' to keep the lands intact and in order. Thus, Marika. The chosen Empyrian. (The Gloam Eyed Queen is likely another Abyssal Serphant coming up through the cracks of creation, in opposition to the One Great/Greater Will 'lineage'? It's another microcosm)

-But then Radagon? How? well, if a god requires two forces acting against each other, makes sense that he's the masculine force to Marikas feminine and spiritual, whole shaman thing, side. Thus creating a whole god, but yet only one i regarded as a god, with Radagon yet to become her; in that famous line Melina tells us.

-But then Ranni? And Miquella? Well, Miquella got his consort, and divested himself of his femininity; when it likely made him a true god in the first place or at least the empyrian in the lead to godship, but we kill him so who knows.

And Ranni is backed by the moon. And I don't wanna talk about the stupid moons and her four arms. She divested herself of her flesh anyways, so who knows!

-The shadow bound beasts aren't even really fleshed out, Miquella doesn't seem to have one, so I'm not sure where they stand in all this. Maybe they really are just failsafes and Miquella didn't need one because he wasn't going in a drastic direction according to the Greater Will (technically Metyr but whatevs)

yeah and I think that's it. thanks for reading!

Star Theory: Elden Ring outer gods and the 'nature of the universe'

(I'm feeling particularly neurotic so you're suffering with me)

SO, in case you aren't aware, which is entirely possible i barely knew of it before, but stars have life cycles! Which is weird, right? And the fact that it's never brought up in Elden Ring despite the fact there's this sense that Markia and everyone is supposed to be old as hell? And there's an entire academy dedicated to learning of the stars?

Well, dear reader, do I have the explanation for you! This will be long winded, so bear with me! And if there's someone who's already done this, you should probably listen to them instead!

first and foremost, stars are made up of conflicting forces, gravity pushing in, heat pushing out. But, to keep things more poetic, and in line with the whole fantasy aspect of elden ring, let's call it the Devouring aspect and the Creation aspect. Gravity creates pressure, trying to devour itself, but creates it's own feed to feast upon. Easy to follow?

As such, everything exists in perpetuity, creating itself and living in cycles? Or more importantly, every action has its equal opposite reaction. Life begets death, so on so forth. So everything lives in duality, having one part of itself necessary to oppose to creat more of it.

now, that's just how a star works, but there's more than one type of star, and thus life cycles.

this is a more rudimentary visual, but it gets the point across, alright?

Quick to start, let's cover backstory (or at least what I assume the backstory is) of the One Great, Greater Will, and what not for a quick understanding. But keep the visual in mind!

First, we can safely (?) assume that the One Great from Hyetta's dialog is likely in reference to the big bang in some capacity, so that's the beginning of the universe covered. One Greats dead, created everything, blah blah blah.

Next! As said in something about the glinstone sorcerer Azur(?) he witnessed the Greater Will's death, where it likely then became a Black Hole (the mass death of stars around it?) [Comet Azur and the Primeval Current is likely in reference to the nature of the expanding universe, akin to how water spreads out from a droplet of water, just on a mass scale i guess, given it almosg looks like rushing water to me]

Wverything after that and during when the Greater Will was up and running? no idea, not really important for my argument anyways.

So where does that leave Metyr and Elden Beast? Well, Metyr has the Neutron star attack, and given that she's the prodigal daughter of a dead god, it seems like she witnessed at least some of the death maybe? Or is at least aware of the 'end' of gods in something capacity, maybe. Elden Beast however seem more like stabilized core of a star given its veins of gold, and given that the Greater Will was a God of Order, it makes sense that at least one of them seems somewhat stable. (Sorry Metyr)

On to the outer gods and the necessity of duality!

As you can see, there are multiple forms of stars! Red and Yellow as main focal, with maybe othefs?

So! Let's start with the obvious,

The Blood Star- red? Check. Small or large? Eh. Formless Mother? What?

As I said about duality, and stars, one begets the other. The Devouring agent and the Creation agent.

Specifically, let's take a quick detour through religious inspiration. And I'm gonna make this quick.

*There is this belief that a whole being is made up two people, one masculine one feminine. Greeks had it in the creation mythos of man, and there's probably a Buddah or two that have the same shtick, unfortunately I'm not overly familiar with that game, but you get my point.

And in some eastern beliefs, i believe Taoism, there is a dichotomy between the masculine and feminine. One physical and other spiritual, repectively*

Point is, if stars can represent outer gods, and a whole being is made up of two. Than it's likey that Devouring agent and Creation agent have their respective gods conjoined into one star but still separate identities! (So Marika and Radagon?)

-The easiest outer gods to apply this logic to are the ones I mentioned up top, The Blood Star and Formless Mother. Both deal in blood, one masculine and demanding sacrifice of blood in the physical, with the whole history of blind prisoners. while the Formless Mother 'asks' for blood with 'promises' of something in return, a bargain like upping Mohgs wings to a latger size, and has a more creation aspect given the Mother moniker. As well as 'gifting' her blood to people, such as Mohg, and a piece of her flesh in the DLC blood fiends cult cave place that they apparently ate. Perharps, some kind of desire to be devoured in the sense of missing a whole part of the self where life is born from death? Through the pressure of the star then creating heat?

-Next would be: The Rot! I think that with the whole Lake of Rot being a more red-red color, it was defeated by the blind swordsman(? right?) when it was in its masculine phase, and then switched over into the more feminine side, trying to spread it's influence through any means necessary as a dying star! Thus taking on a more pinker color through Romina's bud, being 'born anew' by it in some capacity and also seemingly taking nest in feminine figures, Romina and Melania! (Also through Milicent being 'born' of Melania through odd means?)

-The Twin Birds would likely be a blue star in some capacity, likely quite large given that they represent death and all that. However, that's as far as I can get really. And death has its whole thing going on with Godwyn as well and I just don't wanna touch it.

-The Fell God and The God Devoring Serphant (Not the Abyssal Serphant) are kind of intertwined due to proximity, and the giants forge having serphants on it. As well as Rykard and Eiglay being in a volcano, as opposed to the giants forge being on a mountain top surrounded by snow. Life, Death. Fire, Ice. Duality, ya know?

-The Abyssal Serphant likely exists in duality to the One Great rather than something more simple, which is why it snake imagery slips into everything despite everything being born of the One Great. Abyssal Serphant devours, the One Great, creates. Not specifically a star, but it's good to get it out of the way now real quick. But will show up later! And it's similar to Dark Souls!

-The Frenzied Flame, the big doozey. You know how I said everything exists in duality? Well, what better way for duality to exist then for duality to be dual in itself? If you want 2, you can't just have the single number, you need two! So why not 2 and 3? Confused yet? Duality needs duality to be duality. As such, Order is Chaos. That easy.

-The Greater Will and The Frenzied Flame, are two sides of the same coin. Creating order, the other wanting to burn it all down. A microcosm of the One Great and The Abyssal Serphant pretty much. The first wanting to continually exist in perpetuity creating, the other a harbinger of the end itself. Heat death of the universe pretty much, i guess.

-The moons?

I don't wanna talk about the moons. In our guiding stars very own lordly words, Count Ymir, they are simply the closest celestial bodies. (I'm lying)

Okay so what's up with tem? Are they gods? No? Then what are they? If they are gods, then why isn't there a god of the Lands Between? It's a terrestrial body isn't it? If the moon is like greek myth, the titan Selene, where is Gaia?

Well, that's where Marika (and Radagon) come in. So, as we learned in the DLC, a god requires a lord, and when we finish the main game, unless we choose Ranni's ending, we become Marika's consort. So, perhaps it's something similar to such? The necessity of duality?

-My leading theory, with everything else already explained, is that maybe the Greater Will was an outer god, killed Placidsaxes god? In some way? And then needed some kind of 'vessel' to keep the lands intact and in order. Thus, Marika. The chosen Empyrian. (The Gloam Eyed Queen is likely another Abyssal Serphant coming up through the cracks of creation, in opposition to the One Great/Greater Will 'lineage'? It's another microcosm)

-But then Radagon? How? well, if a god requires two forces acting against each other, makes sense that he's the masculine force to Marikas feminine and spiritual, whole shaman thing, side. Thus creating a whole god, but yet only one i regarded as a god, with Radagon yet to become her; in that famous line Melina tells us.

-But then Ranni? And Miquella? Well, Miquella got his consort, and divested himself of his femininity; when it likely made him a true god in the first place or at least the empyrian in the lead to godship, but we kill him so who knows.

And Ranni is backed by the moon. And I don't wanna talk about the stupid moons and her four arms. She divested herself of her flesh anyways, so who knows!

-The shadow bound beasts aren't even really fleshed out, Miquella doesn't seem to have one, so I'm not sure where they stand in all this. Maybe they really are just failsafes and Miquella didn't need one because he wasn't going in a drastic direction according to the Greater Will (technically Metyr but whatevs)

yeah and I think that's it. thanks for reading!

oh yeah! almost forgor

The Crucible is likely the other half of the primeval current, kind of? In my mind, with how the primeval current represents the ever expanding universe, it can kind of be compared to a stream of water. and in that water sediment gets picked up and tossed around and deposited, that being aspects of the crucible, life itself i guess? born from the One Great's death explosion; yet instead of a dichotomy of life and death, Creation and Devouring; it'd be more like Life itself being born, then Time running its course, leading to eventual death.

Star Theory: Elden Ring outer gods and the 'nature of the universe'

(I'm feeling particularly neurotic so you're suffering with me)

SO, in case you aren't aware, which is entirely possible i barely knew of it before, but stars have life cycles! Which is weird, right? And the fact that it's never brought up in Elden Ring despite the fact there's this sense that Markia and everyone is supposed to be old as hell? And there's an entire academy dedicated to learning of the stars?

Well, dear reader, do I have the explanation for you! This will be long winded, so bear with me! And if there's someone who's already done this, you should probably listen to them instead!

first and foremost, stars are made up of conflicting forces, gravity pushing in, heat pushing out. But, to keep things more poetic, and in line with the whole fantasy aspect of elden ring, let's call it the Devouring aspect and the Creation aspect. Gravity creates pressure, trying to devour itself, but creates it's own feed to feast upon. Easy to follow?

As such, everything exists in perpetuity, creating itself and living in cycles? Or more importantly, every action has its equal opposite reaction. Life begets death, so on so forth. So everything lives in duality, having one part of itself necessary to oppose to creat more of it.

now, that's just how a star works, but there's more than one type of star, and thus life cycles.

this is a more rudimentary visual, but it gets the point across, alright?

Quick to start, let's cover backstory (or at least what I assume the backstory is) of the One Great, Greater Will, and what not for a quick understanding. But keep the visual in mind!

First, we can safely (?) assume that the One Great from Hyetta's dialog is likely in reference to the big bang in some capacity, so that's the beginning of the universe covered. One Greats dead, created everything, blah blah blah.

Next! As said in something about the glinstone sorcerer Azur(?) he witnessed the Greater Will's death, where it likely then became a Black Hole (the mass death of stars around it?) [Comet Azur and the Primeval Current is likely in reference to the nature of the expanding universe, akin to how water spreads out from a droplet of water, just on a mass scale i guess, given it almosg looks like rushing water to me]

Wverything after that and during when the Greater Will was up and running? no idea, not really important for my argument anyways.

So where does that leave Metyr and Elden Beast? Well, Metyr has the Neutron star attack, and given that she's the prodigal daughter of a dead god, it seems like she witnessed at least some of the death maybe? Or is at least aware of the 'end' of gods in something capacity, maybe. Elden Beast however seem more like stabilized core of a star given its veins of gold, and given that the Greater Will was a God of Order, it makes sense that at least one of them seems somewhat stable. (Sorry Metyr)

On to the outer gods and the necessity of duality!

As you can see, there are multiple forms of stars! Red and Yellow as main focal, with maybe othefs?

So! Let's start with the obvious,

The Blood Star- red? Check. Small or large? Eh. Formless Mother? What?

As I said about duality, and stars, one begets the other. The Devouring agent and the Creation agent.

Specifically, let's take a quick detour through religious inspiration. And I'm gonna make this quick.

*There is this belief that a whole being is made up two people, one masculine one feminine. Greeks had it in the creation mythos of man, and there's probably a Buddah or two that have the same shtick, unfortunately I'm not overly familiar with that game, but you get my point.

And in some eastern beliefs, i believe Taoism, there is a dichotomy between the masculine and feminine. One physical and other spiritual, repectively*

Point is, if stars can represent outer gods, and a whole being is made up of two. Than it's likey that Devouring agent and Creation agent have their respective gods conjoined into one star but still separate identities! (So Marika and Radagon?)

-The easiest outer gods to apply this logic to are the ones I mentioned up top, The Blood Star and Formless Mother. Both deal in blood, one masculine and demanding sacrifice of blood in the physical, with the whole history of blind prisoners. while the Formless Mother 'asks' for blood with 'promises' of something in return, a bargain like upping Mohgs wings to a latger size, and has a more creation aspect given the Mother moniker. As well as 'gifting' her blood to people, such as Mohg, and a piece of her flesh in the DLC blood fiends cult cave place that they apparently ate. Perharps, some kind of desire to be devoured in the sense of missing a whole part of the self where life is born from death? Through the pressure of the star then creating heat?

-Next would be: The Rot! I think that with the whole Lake of Rot being a more red-red color, it was defeated by the blind swordsman(? right?) when it was in its masculine phase, and then switched over into the more feminine side, trying to spread it's influence through any means necessary as a dying star! Thus taking on a more pinker color through Romina's bud, being 'born anew' by it in some capacity and also seemingly taking nest in feminine figures, Romina and Melania! (Also through Milicent being 'born' of Melania through odd means?)

-The Twin Birds would likely be a blue star in some capacity, likely quite large given that they represent death and all that. However, that's as far as I can get really. And death has its whole thing going on with Godwyn as well and I just don't wanna touch it.

-The Fell God and The God Devoring Serphant (Not the Abyssal Serphant) are kind of intertwined due to proximity, and the giants forge having serphants on it. As well as Rykard and Eiglay being in a volcano, as opposed to the giants forge being on a mountain top surrounded by snow. Life, Death. Fire, Ice. Duality, ya know?

-The Abyssal Serphant likely exists in duality to the One Great rather than something more simple, which is why it snake imagery slips into everything despite everything being born of the One Great. Abyssal Serphant devours, the One Great, creates. Not specifically a star, but it's good to get it out of the way now real quick. But will show up later! And it's similar to Dark Souls!

-The Frenzied Flame, the big doozey. You know how I said everything exists in duality? Well, what better way for duality to exist then for duality to be dual in itself? If you want 2, you can't just have the single number, you need two! So why not 2 and 3? Confused yet? Duality needs duality to be duality. As such, Order is Chaos. That easy.

-The Greater Will and The Frenzied Flame, are two sides of the same coin. Creating order, the other wanting to burn it all down. A microcosm of the One Great and The Abyssal Serphant pretty much. The first wanting to continually exist in perpetuity creating, the other a harbinger of the end itself. Heat death of the universe pretty much, i guess.

-The moons?

I don't wanna talk about the moons. In our guiding stars very own lordly words, Count Ymir, they are simply the closest celestial bodies. (I'm lying)

Okay so what's up with tem? Are they gods? No? Then what are they? If they are gods, then why isn't there a god of the Lands Between? It's a terrestrial body isn't it? If the moon is like greek myth, the titan Selene, where is Gaia?

Well, that's where Marika (and Radagon) come in. So, as we learned in the DLC, a god requires a lord, and when we finish the main game, unless we choose Ranni's ending, we become Marika's consort. So, perhaps it's something similar to such? The necessity of duality?

-My leading theory, with everything else already explained, is that maybe the Greater Will was an outer god, killed Placidsaxes god? In some way? And then needed some kind of 'vessel' to keep the lands intact and in order. Thus, Marika. The chosen Empyrian. (The Gloam Eyed Queen is likely another Abyssal Serphant coming up through the cracks of creation, in opposition to the One Great/Greater Will 'lineage'? It's another microcosm)

-But then Radagon? How? well, if a god requires two forces acting against each other, makes sense that he's the masculine force to Marikas feminine and spiritual, whole shaman thing, side. Thus creating a whole god, but yet only one i regarded as a god, with Radagon yet to become her; in that famous line Melina tells us.

-But then Ranni? And Miquella? Well, Miquella got his consort, and divested himself of his femininity; when it likely made him a true god in the first place or at least the empyrian in the lead to godship, but we kill him so who knows.

And Ranni is backed by the moon. And I don't wanna talk about the stupid moons and her four arms. She divested herself of her flesh anyways, so who knows!

-The shadow bound beasts aren't even really fleshed out, Miquella doesn't seem to have one, so I'm not sure where they stand in all this. Maybe they really are just failsafes and Miquella didn't need one because he wasn't going in a drastic direction according to the Greater Will (technically Metyr but whatevs)

yeah and I think that's it. thanks for reading!

Star Theory: Elden Ring outer gods and the 'nature of the universe'

(I'm feeling particularly neurotic so you're suffering with me)

SO, in case you aren't aware, which is entirely possible i barely knew of it before, but stars have life cycles! Which is weird, right? And the fact that it's never brought up in Elden Ring despite the fact there's this sense that Markia and everyone is supposed to be old as hell? And there's an entire academy dedicated to learning of the stars?

Well, dear reader, do I have the explanation for you! This will be long winded, so bear with me! And if there's someone who's already done this, you should probably listen to them instead!

first and foremost, stars are made up of conflicting forces, gravity pushing in, heat pushing out. But, to keep things more poetic, and in line with the whole fantasy aspect of elden ring, let's call it the Devouring aspect and the Creation aspect. Gravity creates pressure, trying to devour itself, but creates it's own feed to feast upon. Easy to follow?

As such, everything exists in perpetuity, creating itself and living in cycles? Or more importantly, every action has its equal opposite reaction. Life begets death, so on so forth. So everything lives in duality, having one part of itself necessary to oppose to creat more of it.

now, that's just how a star works, but there's more than one type of star, and thus life cycles.

this is a more rudimentary visual, but it gets the point across, alright?

Quick to start, let's cover backstory (or at least what I assume the backstory is) of the One Great, Greater Will, and what not for a quick understanding. But keep the visual in mind!

First, we can safely (?) assume that the One Great from Hyetta's dialog is likely in reference to the big bang in some capacity, so that's the beginning of the universe covered. One Greats dead, created everything, blah blah blah.

Next! As said in something about the glinstone sorcerer Azur(?) he witnessed the Greater Will's death, where it likely then became a Black Hole (the mass death of stars around it?) [Comet Azur and the Primeval Current is likely in reference to the nature of the expanding universe, akin to how water spreads out from a droplet of water, just on a mass scale i guess, given it almosg looks like rushing water to me]

Wverything after that and during when the Greater Will was up and running? no idea, not really important for my argument anyways.

So where does that leave Metyr and Elden Beast? Well, Metyr has the Neutron star attack, and given that she's the prodigal daughter of a dead god, it seems like she witnessed at least some of the death maybe? Or is at least aware of the 'end' of gods in something capacity, maybe. Elden Beast however seem more like stabilized core of a star given its veins of gold, and given that the Greater Will was a God of Order, it makes sense that at least one of them seems somewhat stable. (Sorry Metyr)

On to the outer gods and the necessity of duality!

As you can see, there are multiple forms of stars! Red and Yellow as main focal, with maybe othefs?

So! Let's start with the obvious,

The Blood Star- red? Check. Small or large? Eh. Formless Mother? What?

As I said about duality, and stars, one begets the other. The Devouring agent and the Creation agent.

Specifically, let's take a quick detour through religious inspiration. And I'm gonna make this quick.

*There is this belief that a whole being is made up two people, one masculine one feminine. Greeks had it in the creation mythos of man, and there's probably a Buddah or two that have the same shtick, unfortunately I'm not overly familiar with that game, but you get my point.

And in some eastern beliefs, i believe Taoism, there is a dichotomy between the masculine and feminine. One physical and other spiritual, repectively*

Point is, if stars can represent outer gods, and a whole being is made up of two. Than it's likey that Devouring agent and Creation agent have their respective gods conjoined into one star but still separate identities! (So Marika and Radagon?)

-The easiest outer gods to apply this logic to are the ones I mentioned up top, The Blood Star and Formless Mother. Both deal in blood, one masculine and demanding sacrifice of blood in the physical, with the whole history of blind prisoners. while the Formless Mother 'asks' for blood with 'promises' of something in return, a bargain like upping Mohgs wings to a latger size, and has a more creation aspect given the Mother moniker. As well as 'gifting' her blood to people, such as Mohg, and a piece of her flesh in the DLC blood fiends cult cave place that they apparently ate. Perharps, some kind of desire to be devoured in the sense of missing a whole part of the self where life is born from death? Through the pressure of the star then creating heat?

-Next would be: The Rot! I think that with the whole Lake of Rot being a more red-red color, it was defeated by the blind swordsman(? right?) when it was in its masculine phase, and then switched over into the more feminine side, trying to spread it's influence through any means necessary as a dying star! Thus taking on a more pinker color through Romina's bud, being 'born anew' by it in some capacity and also seemingly taking nest in feminine figures, Romina and Melania! (Also through Milicent being 'born' of Melania through odd means?)

-The Twin Birds would likely be a blue star in some capacity, likely quite large given that they represent death and all that. However, that's as far as I can get really. And death has its whole thing going on with Godwyn as well and I just don't wanna touch it.

-The Fell God and The God Devoring Serphant (Not the Abyssal Serphant) are kind of intertwined due to proximity, and the giants forge having serphants on it. As well as Rykard and Eiglay being in a volcano, as opposed to the giants forge being on a mountain top surrounded by snow. Life, Death. Fire, Ice. Duality, ya know?

-The Abyssal Serphant likely exists in duality to the One Great rather than something more simple, which is why it snake imagery slips into everything despite everything being born of the One Great. Abyssal Serphant devours, the One Great, creates. Not specifically a star, but it's good to get it out of the way now real quick. But will show up later! And it's similar to Dark Souls!

-The Frenzied Flame, the big doozey. You know how I said everything exists in duality? Well, what better way for duality to exist then for duality to be dual in itself? If you want 2, you can't just have the single number, you need two! So why not 2 and 3? Confused yet? Duality needs duality to be duality. As such, Order is Chaos. That easy.

-The Greater Will and The Frenzied Flame, are two sides of the same coin. Creating order, the other wanting to burn it all down. A microcosm of the One Great and The Abyssal Serphant pretty much. The first wanting to continually exist in perpetuity creating, the other a harbinger of the end itself. Heat death of the universe pretty much, i guess.

-The moons?

I don't wanna talk about the moons. In our guiding stars very own lordly words, Count Ymir, they are simply the closest celestial bodies. (I'm lying)

Okay so what's up with tem? Are they gods? No? Then what are they? If they are gods, then why isn't there a god of the Lands Between? It's a terrestrial body isn't it? If the moon is like greek myth, the titan Selene, where is Gaia?

Well, that's where Marika (and Radagon) come in. So, as we learned in the DLC, a god requires a lord, and when we finish the main game, unless we choose Ranni's ending, we become Marika's consort. So, perhaps it's something similar to such? The necessity of duality?

-My leading theory, with everything else already explained, is that maybe the Greater Will was an outer god, killed Placidsaxes god? In some way? And then needed some kind of 'vessel' to keep the lands intact and in order. Thus, Marika. The chosen Empyrian. (The Gloam Eyed Queen is likely another Abyssal Serphant coming up through the cracks of creation, in opposition to the One Great/Greater Will 'lineage'? It's another microcosm)

-But then Radagon? How? well, if a god requires two forces acting against each other, makes sense that he's the masculine force to Marikas feminine and spiritual, whole shaman thing, side. Thus creating a whole god, but yet only one i regarded as a god, with Radagon yet to become her; in that famous line Melina tells us.

-But then Ranni? And Miquella? Well, Miquella got his consort, and divested himself of his femininity; when it likely made him a true god in the first place or at least the empyrian in the lead to godship, but we kill him so who knows.

And Ranni is backed by the moon. And I don't wanna talk about the stupid moons and her four arms. She divested herself of her flesh anyways, so who knows!

-The shadow bound beasts aren't even really fleshed out, Miquella doesn't seem to have one, so I'm not sure where they stand in all this. Maybe they really are just failsafes and Miquella didn't need one because he wasn't going in a drastic direction according to the Greater Will (technically Metyr but whatevs)

yeah and I think that's it. thanks for reading!